Brakes 101 (and 102)

[RTW DC2R]

I dont think we have any general brake related threads, so I figured I will add one. If there is another thread somewhere feel free to merge.

As I am in the mist of making some braking changes to my ITR, I came across some well written "101" style write-ups that I thought I would share.

To be honest, I never really cared too much about braking, mostly because the ITR brakes are already excellent. Just throw on a good pad and some performance fluid, and rock and roll.

Of course not everyone tracks their R and are fine with the stock brakes and/or some bling brakes for points. But there is a lot that goes into a well-rounded braking system that I never really thought about so here are a couple links to get the discussion started. If you never really thought about it or want to learn more, seems like a good place to start.

https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/braking- ... anagement/
https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/educatio ... -upgrades/

Its more than just pads and fluid!

Brake Pedal Assembly
Brake Master Cylinder
Brake Booster (Power Assist)
Brake Fluid
Brake Lines (Hard)
Brake Lines (Flexible)
Brake Bias Control
Brake Calipers
Brake Pad Anti-Squeal Shims
Brake Pads
Brake Rotors
Brake Cooling Ducts
ABS System

[Dave7CDMTYPER]

Don't forget the brake shim grease! Haha

[coolhandluke]

...Its more than just pads and fluid!

Brake Pedal Assembly
Brake Master Cylinder
Brake Booster (Power Assist)
Brake Fluid
Brake Lines (Hard)
Brake Lines (Flexible)
Brake Bias Control
Brake Calipers
Brake Pad Anti-Squeal Shims
Brake Pads
Brake Rotors
Brake Cooling Ducts
ABS System

This might be a daunting list for some. I personally haven't messed with the majority of these items and focused solely on:

Brake fluid: ATE SuperBlue (old days) and now Motul RBF600
Brake Lines: (Flexible): SS lines to replace worn/aged factory lines
Brake Calipers: I've run OEM, NSX, Spoon, and now a Alcon BBK
Brake Pads: I've run a mix of pads from Cobalt varietals and Hawk DTC30/60 and HT10's
Brake Rotors: Autozone, StopTech, and now ProjectMu 2pc in my BBK
ABS System: Removed from 98-1040 in '07 but it was present in my other Type R's I've tracked

Projects for me:
Brake Cooling Ducts
-Duct holes cut into lip + bumper
-ELR brake ducts for bumper procured
-Next: Create hat for brake ducting to rotor/hub

Lessons learned along the way:
-Higher temp pads don't solve the issue of higher brake temps. The impact is the pads last a little longer but the system still over heats at high speed tracks with heavy brake zones
Ex: Stepping up in pads, say DTC30/60 lead to higher brake temps

[RTW DC2R]

The list is just intended to show the many components of the entire system. You don't necessarily have to touch all or most of them but should understand what each piece is and what it does.

(Edit: noticed Bias Control on the list after I typed this out lol) One thing missing from the list is a proportion valve which basically controls the front to rear braking bias. It's the piece mounted on the firewall where all the brake lines connect to and controls how much hydraulic pressure is sent to the rear calipers.

The rear brakes on the ITR don't brake nearly as hard as the front brakes. Upgrading to something like NSX rear calipers, or even just a much more aggressive rear pad can easily cause the rear brakes to lock up under heavy braking. Especially while trail braking on track without some extra down force. Obviously locking up the rears while braking into a corner will make the car want to rotate/spin. The ITR is already rotation-happy (think lift throttle oversteer) so messing with the rear brakes (and even sway bars) can amplify rotation that much more. Not a big deal if you are aware of it (and it can be a good thing) but can be a shock if you didn't expect it.

[DC2Iggy]

Lessons learned along the way:
-Higher temp pads don't solve the issue of higher brake temps. The impact is the pads last a little longer but the system still over heats at high speed tracks with heavy brake zones
Ex: Stepping up in pads, say DTC30/60 lead to higher brake temps

Definitely experienced this at the last track day. Took a while but I could feel the brake pedal getting spongy near the end of a 20 minute session. I was also pushing a lot harder and braking harder that day which resulted in a cracked rotor. Will need a flush and new rotors before the next event.

Brake fluid: ATE Type 200
Brake Lines: Stoptech Stainless Steel Braided Lines
Brake Calipers: OEM ITR
Brake Pads: Hawk DTC60
Brake Rotors: Centric Blanks
ABS System: Stock

[RTW DC2R]

I'm not particularly hard on brakes but have cooked a few light duty pads once or twice. Also keep in mind the amount of grip you have (tires) has a huge impact on braking.

My setup is currently as follows:

Brake fluid: ATE amber (replaced superblue)
Brake Lines: (Flexible): Stoptech SS lines
Brake Calipers: OEM
Brake Pads: XP10 front, XP8 rears. A huge fan although they make a ton of noise under normal driving (Im lazy and drive them on the street). Also a huge fan of HT10s.
Brake Rotors: Centric stock size blanks from RockAuto (23mm)
ABS System: Removed

I am changing my front setup to either NA1/2 NSX or 94-95 Legend 2 piston calipers with 28mm rotors. Im working out a few kinks and haven't decided which route I will go.

The stock ITR calipers provide more braking force (more surface area) than both the NSX and Legend two piston calipers. However, that force is only being applied with a single large piston. Two pistons may have an advantage in applying force more evenly across the pad.
The Legend calipers have more force than the NSX calipers.
The NSX calipers have heat sink ridges though to help dissipate heat.
Both the NSX and Legend calipers use a 28mm rotor which can also help with heat dissipation.
The NSX and Legend calipers will require more pedal input and a longer pedal stroke.

[aw614]

I noticed several have their ABS removed, even though the information is all searchable on T-I and H-T, it might be worth it for those wanting to do the conversion or mention what changes were done to convert it, Ie. Which prop valve was used (40-40) and master cylinder and/or booster deletes, etc.

I do have a question, how does everyone's rear pads hold up during a track day with regards to wear and feel? Does anyone notice that brake pedal "feel" is better when the rear pads are close to new vs half worn?

I plan on keeping my ABS as I really like how it works, but I can see myself getting into another Honda/Acura with the ABS removed or one that does not have it from the factory.

My current setup. Slightly different due to being 4 lug, but similar with the parts used. I did cook my brake pads on my first track day with the stock ITR calipers, but I was dumb and used stock pads thinking they would hold up. By the second session they were pretty much done. I do not think the fluid boiled. But one of my calipers did also start weeping fluid. All stupid mistakes on my part, but the track I was at is known to be hard on brakes.

Brake fluid: RBF 600
Brake Lines: (Flexible): New OEM fronts, original OEM rears (new lines sitting in a box, just lazy)
Brake Calipers: Spoon Twin Block up Front, RSX Type S rears (Same as ITR, minus bleed nipple)
Still have my OEM ITR/Acura CL calipers as backup.
Brake Pads: Stock OEM acura pads front and rear for autocross, Winmax W3 for front for track days with stock acura pads in the back
Brake Rotors: Centric Mini Cooper rotors 280mm from rockauto (want to change to redrilled prelude rotors since they are 23mm and 282mm and autozone ep3 rear rotors
ABS System: Retained with ITR prop valve and ITR ABS ECU

[coolhandluke]

Lessons learned along the way:
-Higher temp pads don't solve the issue of higher brake temps. The impact is the pads last a little longer but the system still over heats at high speed tracks with heavy brake zones
Ex: Stepping up in pads, say DTC30/60 lead to higher brake temps

Definitely experienced this at the last track day. Took a while but I could feel the brake pedal getting spongy near the end of a 20 minute session. I was also pushing a lot harder and braking harder that day which resulted in a cracked rotor. Will need a flush and new rotors before the next event...

Don't forget to bed in the new rotors to your DTC60 pads.

I need to pull up internet archives on the old StopTech article...

[RTW DC2R]

I noticed several have their ABS removed, even though the information is all searchable on T-I and H-T, it might be worth it for those wanting to do the conversion or mention what changes were done to convert it, Ie. Which prop valve was used (40-40) and master cylinder and/or booster deletes, etc.

I do have a question, how does everyone's rear pads hold up during a track day with regards to wear and feel? Does anyone notice that brake pedal "feel" is better when the rear pads are close to new vs half worn?

I removed my ABS because the car had ABS sensor issues from the day I bought it and I could never get it sorted. I also do not like how ABS feels on track. I HATE the pedal feedback and dont like nanny helpers anyway A Type R shouldnt have ABS lol

I converted to a complete Integra RS setup. I know at least one of the front hard lines is no longer available new from Honda (I forget which side) but I ended up making my own lines anyway and saved a few bucks that way. Otherwise its pretty simple to remove all the ABS sensors from each wheel, the ABS unit in the engine bay, install the RS prop valve, and run new hard lines to it from the front calipers. Stock ITR booster and MC. I think I had to make one of the MC lines to work with the prop valve as well. You dont really need to touch anything related to the rear other than removing the rear ABS sensors.

I thought I had written up an ABS removal somewhere so I will have to search around. And yeah you can find those all over the internet but didnt see any general Brake related threads here.

As for rear pads, Id say they are hardly used on my car. I have never worn out a set of rear pads. The only time I had issues with rear pads was when a rear caliper seized up it worn the pads unevenly.

[RTW DC2R]

Some braking technique info that just came through my inbox today.

https://nasaspeed.news/columns/driver-i ... r-braking/