Track Day street car safety?

[aklackner]

Curious what others are doing since I tend to over think, well every thing.

So as far as I’m aware a street driven car will face the following on a track:

A) Marginal holding - driver will slide about/must hold themselves in place.

B) Lack of HANS support - helmet means, in accident, increased strain to on neck but support devices are not 3 point compatible.

I like the idea of the Scroth quick connect pro harness (4pt) which is both DOT (asm) approved and Hans compatible but I don’t see an application for the Integra.

Another option is to go with a roll cage (reason I’m thinking about this now while my shell is bare) but there are risks with this on the street and DOT issues with seats and 5+ pt harnesses.

Or to tackle holding issues there’s the holding monster (Bride Stradia?) but then it’s back to roll issues due to lack of spring based release of OEM seats. From what I understand OEM seats are designed so they will pop out of the set position with sufficient force, such as in roll over crush , 3 point belts allow backward (escape) movement. :s

Or accept on non-r rubber (and talent which is quickly exceeded in a kiddie push car) that need for increased holding is less than the demand for OEM safety system. = rock USDM seats/belts, a knee to the door panel/center console mid-corner, and the lightest helmet I can afford.

[DC2Iggy]

Why not look at something like a CG lock add on for your oem seat belt? These are popular in the autocross community and they help keep you in your seat better. I would also look at getting a seat with some better bolstering. It’s amazing how much more confident one is on a track when they are not worrying about sliding around.

Cage will make the car more rigid and increase safety on track but on a street car it can be dangerous if you’re not wearing a helmet.

[Xian]

1- slide seat back
2- give belt a sharp jerk
3- slide seat forward
4- now you’ll be held in place/not have to hold yourself in position

Fuck HANS. They’re the most recognizable name in Head & Neck safety but have appalling business practices. Check out the Simpson Hybrid S... it works with 3 point and multi-point belts.

https://pitstopusa.com/i-23931495-simps ... raint.html

[aklackner]

Awesome, I wasn’t aware there was 3 point compatible restraint! HANS was only listed in the generic not meaning to be brand specific.

I’d heard of locking out the oem seat belt but also that it doesn’t take much to unlock to normal mode. If that’s working for others though it seems like the best option.

I knew there would be some better answers out there.

Many thanks

[Xian]

Yeppers, there are quite a few H&N devices out there. HANS has run some out of business before getting sold by Hubbard/Downing (ironically enough, to Simpson). The Hybrid line was originally advertised as working with 3 point belts and then remarketed with only the R3 (IIRC) and then the Hybrid S as having 3 point compatibility. I’m guessing that all the Hybrids help “some” when used with 3 point belts but the S works “better”. The piece to look at on the S that’s different is the section that runs longitudinally down the spine; it’s longer than the other models.

IME, the key to getting the stock belt to work is getting it REALLY tight. Slide the seat all the way back, snug it up, snap the belt, and then pull yourself forward... if you hook your feet on the backside of the pedals, you can get the belt way tighter than you’d expect. If the belt isn’t tight enough, it’ll get unloaded at some point and the auto lock feature disengages.

Edit:
The next step up is a rear roll bar, fixed back seats, and 5/6 point belts. At that point, I’d suggest just getting a track car or dialing back the on-track aggression to where you don’t stuff your street car into the wall.

[PatHidden]

I tend to look at safety as an all or nothing type deal.

If you're going to get a fixed back seat, I recommend: roll bar, 5/6 harness, and hans device.
If you're going to get a roll bar, I recommend: FIA Fixed back seat, 5/6 harness, and hans device.
etc.
etc.

From my understanding, if you only get one of the components above your car will be actually not as safe versus all OEM.

Oem 3 point is designed to stretch on impact and fold your body, to limit the instant Gs on the body. (plus airbag assist in this). So I don't see much of a reason to use a head and neck restraint with oem 3 point, but maybe side impact? idk but it sure wouldn't hurt.

Anyways, my point is all or nothing.

[Xian]

I tend to look at safety as an all or nothing type deal.

If you're going to get a fixed back seat, I recommend: roll bar, 5/6 harness, and hans device.
If you're going to get a roll bar, I recommend: FIA Fixed back seat, 5/6 harness, and hans device.
etc.
etc.

From my understanding, if you only get one of the components above your car will be actually not as safe versus all OEM.

Oem 3 point is designed to stretch on impact and fold your body, to limit the instant Gs on the body. (plus airbag assist in this). So I don't see much of a reason to use a head and neck restraint with oem 3 point, but maybe side impact? idk but it sure wouldn't hurt.

Anyways, my point is all or nothing.

Ehhhhh... I get where you’re coming from but any dual purpose car is a compromise solution. Heck, even dedicated track cars are a compromise solution... just skewed more heavily toward racetrack safety vs street safety.

How unsafe is a fixedback seat without a rollbar? I’d ask what the odds are of a rollover. A fixed back seat will generally be safer than the stock one in every crash except a rollover. They’re not exactly unsafe in a rollover unless the roof structure crushes significantly (at which point it can get ugly if you’re also running multi-point belts).

As far as using a H&N with a 3 point belt, why wouldn’t you? If nothing else, you’ll have less soft tissue damage in a crash so you’ll be less sore during recovery. There’s literally no downside to one. As far as believing that the stock safety system will work best without one, I’d challenge you to dig up some data on how well helmets play with airbags. I’ll give you a hint; there’s essentially no data out there because it’s not tested.

Anecdotally, I’ve heard of folks who got their bell rung harder than expected from helmet to airbag contact. I wouldn’t place a ton of stock in even this statement as each crash and airbag setup is going to be different.

The last thing I’ll say is that for me, I’m comfortable driving inside my limits using stock safety gear but I prefer being in a caged racecar with all my gear. And if I was buying a new H&N, I’d get the Simpson one.

[PatHidden]

I agree with you Xian. I have a dual purpose car that I drive to the track and its definitely not safe for the street. The Compromise is heavily leaned towards the track.(but thats my choice, which is a whole another argument lol)

When I see threads like these I always reply "all or nothing" because we really don't have any data on changing only one variable of the OEM safety equation. So why not get all the components to work in harmony? However, I do forget that we are talking about cars from the 90s vs modern cars that are way safer. So probably one component at a time wouldn't hurt, but it isn't maximize.

Also, do you have any info about these HANs business practices? I like to be an inform buyer and now I'm second guessing my HANs purchase..... Maybe should have got a NextGen or Hybrid.

[Xian]

Sorry for the delay... end of Q4 at work.

In a nutshell, Hubbard/Downing developed the HANS (which was generally a good thing). They got into bed with SFI and were the ones to write the 38.1 H&N spec for SFI. As a result, they included physical features/characteristics that are core to the HANS. It needed to have a “yoke style” attachment, be a single point of release, etc. As a result, the initial competitors were really only able to emulate the HANS and risk copyright infringement or they wouldn’t meet the Regs... G-Force made a H&N that was dropped pretty shortly after release. IIRC, it was pretty damn cheap compared to HANS but didn’t meet the SFI spec since there wasn’t a “yoke”. DefNder had a great product (I’ve still got one) but they were sued by HANS for copyright infringement and went under (only to come back as NecksGen). Greg Baker at Isaac developed a pretty slick setup that attached mini shock absorbers to the belts and had push/pull pins for helmet release (slick setup, I had one) but it was legislated out of existence due to the nature of SFI 38.1.

Greg and some other folks tried to put together a different Reg via RSI (IIRC) in an effort to quantify what acceptable neck loads were and establish lateral impact requirements. What’s at least a little interesting is that SFI (and Hubbard/Downing/HANS) flatly refused to revise the physical requirements in order to allow more devices to enter the marketplace. Additionally, they refused to implement measurable guidelines for neck load (likely because HANS wasn’t the best at load mitigation). By the time RSI was launched though, it was already too late. NASA had adopted SFI 38.1 and SCCA wasn’t far behind... they’d been allowing it as an optional safety choice but the liability was increasing as public sentiment shifted toward thinking a H&N was a reasonable part of safety requirements.

All the above is IMO, my $0.02, and largely about stuff 10-13 years ago. YMMV.

PS
It’s worth remembering that the initial HANS had horrible lateral visibility as the “sliding teather” wasn’t introduced until ~07-08... and that was largely precipitated because of competition in the marketplace that had better helmet range of motion. This was also the sale timeframe before HANS got the pads/gel cushions so there were a few instances of broken collarbones with their device. I guess the last bit of detail is a reminder about how poorly the early HANS captured the belts on the yoke. Since tin-too
Amateur race cars tend not to have perfect belt mounting and configuration, it was VERY common for one or both belts to slide off the HANS in a crash with multiple impact points. The result is pretty predictable in that the drive would get bounced around more than normal due to the slack in the belts. The punchline is that the HANS suggested solution was belts with a sternum strap... which mean that your SFI required “1 point of release” was actually 2 (plus your radio, cool suit, and drink bottle).