Suspension tuning - dampers, spring rates, etc.

[Xian]

Yes the welded collars are right up on the bushings for the 24mm bar.

Is it possible the flat bar is intended to add additional clearance for the bolt-on collar to avoid contact with the subframe (on some applications)?

Or they may be there to provide a completely flat surface for the bushing to sit against (so it’s not able to twist/be displaced under load)?

[aw614]

Yes the welded collars are right up on the bushings for the 24mm bar.

Is it possible the flat bar is intended to add additional clearance for the bolt-on collar to avoid contact with the subframe (on some applications)?

Or they may be there to provide a completely flat surface for the bushing to sit against (so it’s not able to twist/be displaced under load)?

That was my guess, but the OEM and asr 24mm sway bar aren't using that bracket piece. Anyways here are the pics of how it sits on my car. The collar Im guessing is needed for the ASR bushings/brackets b/c they aren't as wide. With the energy bushings/brackets that came with the eibach version, there isnt a need for a collar.




I was able to drive it at an event last week and it felt great, it offers that extra rotation on soft that wasn't found on the ITR bar. One concern I have and will be looking out for at future events is if the rear wheel goes up there was some understeer mid-turn There was another thread from 2015ish over on that other forum with the following title "SBLMS: Inside rear goes up, front end goes understeer (CRX)" which sort of describes what it felt like at the event.

It wasn't happening all the time so I'll try to see if it occurs at the next event. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I am still on the stock ITR springs with just a bigger bar so its probably still compromised

[Xian]

Yes the welded collars are right up on the bushings for the 24mm bar.

Is it possible the flat bar is intended to add additional clearance for the bolt-on collar to avoid contact with the subframe (on some applications)?

Or they may be there to provide a completely flat surface for the bushing to sit against (so it’s not able to twist/be displaced under load)?

That was my guess, but the OEM and asr 24mm sway bar aren't using that bracket piece. Anyways here are the pics of how it sits on my car. The collar Im guessing is needed for the ASR bushings/brackets b/c they aren't as wide. With the energy bushings/brackets that came with the eibach version, there isnt a need for a collar.




I was able to drive it at an event last week and it felt great, it offers that extra rotation on soft that wasn't found on the ITR bar. One concern I have and will be looking out for at future events is if the rear wheel goes up there was some understeer mid-turn There was another thread from 2015ish over on that other forum with the following title "SBLMS: Inside rear goes up, front end goes understeer (CRX)" which sort of describes what it felt like at the event.

It wasn't happening all the time so I'll try to see if it occurs at the next event. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I am still on the stock ITR springs with just a bigger bar so its probably still compromised

Sounds like some good progress.

What was the concensus from the other thread? More front spring/roll stiffness to keep the chassis flatter and the outside front from losing camber?

[I am the Liquor]

In for discussion as well. We have similar setups and I too have felt the inside rear lift.

[Xian]

In for discussion as well. We have similar setups and I too have felt the inside rear lift.

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with carrying a rear. The trick is that you don’t really want it waaaay up in the air. Once it takes off, the rear is unable to transfer load laterally... which means that it moves across the front axle (or on the diagonal if that’s an easier way to think of it). As a result, you get comparatively more degrees of chassis roll for a given load transfer once the rear is in the air than you did before it took off.

[aw614]

Sounds like some good progress.

What was the concensus from the other thread? More front spring/roll stiffness to keep the chassis flatter and the outside front from losing camber?

I did another event, this time it was slightly wet/dry, I think the setup has some differences that I will need to get accumulated to. Did happen to spin it out twice

There is a lot of good info in the thread from many prominent honda drivers, I'll quote a few of what I found important. One of the things I noticed with the CRX was a quite a bit of people run without the front sway bar. What are your opinions about that, I saw you recommended it too in the thread I don't feel comfortable running without it and I don't think I should based on my rates being basically a stock ITR. I also have the 24mm front bar that all integras got in 00-01. I still want to compromise and keep my integra streetable.

I assume a CRX setup is going to vary slightly from an integra setup with the weight and size differences? It seems for the serious driver, the asr 32mm bar is the preferred bar. But this post, does mention what I feel the the ITR LSD is doing when Im coming out of the corner, I may get the slight understeer, but I can feel the LSD dig and pull the car out.

...which is the driver. What makes the CRX a really fast car is it's natural desire to turn/rotate/spin, and the drivers ability/willingness/crazy to drive it like that and know when to mash the gas.

Ok, so it sounds like you need to:
1 - Throw that front bar away.
2 - Drop your front spring to 500lbs.
3 - Throw that rear bar away.
4 - Install ASR 32mm hollow rear sway bar kit (start with the .095" thickness bar), or Suspension Techniques 24mm rear bar. Begin on softest settings and slowly increase as you gain confidence and additional rotation becomes desired.
5 - Set front toe to 0.
6 - Set rear toe to 0, slowly increasing to 1/16th to 1/8th toe-out as you gain confidence and additional rotation becomes desired.
7 - A good LSD can make a world of difference on a FWD car, and really make that outside front dig in and pull the car out of a corner.
8 - Once you feel like you're getting closer to the sweet spot with the larger components (springs, bars, & shocks), and really want to start dialing in the setup (shock settings, bar settings, toe settings), then you're gonna have to get onto at least some consistently decent tires. Trying to do it on rock-hard five year old take-offs with 15 heat cycles on them is a waste of time.
9 - Lastly, and most important, seat time. Gotta be in there, gaining experience and comfort with what you're doing, and figuring out what you're wanting the car to do.

The initial poster posted his final setup, what I saw was the OP mentioning several times that with the front bar can be set at different tightness settings? Im assuming that is from the endlinks? I always thought with sway bar endlinks you want it tight? Wouldn't a looser cause clunking? Changing my spring rates/shock combo may as well be might next step.

UPDATE: changes in bold

Front: 600lb
Toe: 1/8" total out, OEM sway tight

Rear: 750lb
Toe: 0, 22mm ST Swaybar installed, set on middle setting.

Increased shock rebound.

This was the droid I was looking for. Front grip was there, rotation was there at WOT at/after apex and the oversteer moments were all readily saveable, well, except for one. But other than that it was the rear bar that was the missing piece of the equation.

[DC2Iggy]

So I ended up getting the Koni/GC kit in the end and had it arrive on friday. I started feeling nostalgic as soon as I held them in my hands. 450/350 rates for daily driving and the occasional track day.

During the one autocross event I was able to do this past summer I noticed my front tires were scrubbing on the outside which probably means I need more negative camber. For those relying on coilovers or lowering springs for negative camber gains, how much are you seeing with a mild drop? If I remember correctly I was able to get around -2.2 to -2.5 degrees on my old GSR with the gc/koni but had the top of the tire slightly tucking. Don't think I want to drop the car that much this time around and it sounds like upper camber arms are more of a pain than anything, so I'm wondering what others have done to get some negative camber.

[aw614]

I think there was a set posted a few pages back that wasn't skunk2, I haven't tried them since my skunk2 set still seem to be fine. I think there was a washer method for the fronts too, but not sure how much that ads.

On the stock itr springs, I think I only saw around -1 to -1.5 degrees up front, but I am running around -2 with adjustables (I think I can get over 3 at my current height). I'd love to get more without the adjustable arms, but Im also not a fan of lowering my car where the top of the tire is slightly tucking, at the end of the day, I still need to get up my driveway and into plazas with minimal issue lol

[DC2Iggy]

I think there was a set posted a few pages back that wasn't skunk2, I haven't tried them since my skunk2 set still seem to be fine. I think there was a washer method for the fronts too, but not sure how much that ads.

On the stock itr springs, I think I only saw around -1 to -1.5 degrees up front, but I am running around -2 with adjustables (I think I can get over 3 at my current height). I'd love to get more without the adjustable arms, but Im also not a fan of lowering my car where the top of the tire is slightly tucking, at the end of the day, I still need to get up my driveway and into plazas with minimal issue lol

Yeah that's my issue too. I've got a foot high curb to get up onto my driveway and the streets around here are terrible. I've heard the redesigned skunk2 camber arms are one of the only ones that will not hit the towers but there are still a number of people saying that they have the potential too. I have to replace my upper control arms as the bushings are shot so I'm wondering if upgrading is a good idea or to just leave it stock and get as much camber as I can from lowering.

[Xian]

Sounds like some good progress.

What was the concensus from the other thread? More front spring/roll stiffness to keep the chassis flatter and the outside front from losing camber?

I did another event, this time it was slightly wet/dry, I think the setup has some differences that I will need to get accumulated to. Did happen to spin it out twice

There is a lot of good info in the thread from many prominent honda drivers, I'll quote a few of what I found important. One of the things I noticed with the CRX was a quite a bit of people run without the front sway bar. What are your opinions about that, I saw you recommended it too in the thread I don't feel comfortable running without it and I don't think I should based on my rates being basically a stock ITR. I also have the 24mm front bar that all integras got in 00-01. I still want to compromise and keep my integra streetable.

I assume a CRX setup is going to vary slightly from an integra setup with the weight and size differences? It seems for the serious driver, the asr 32mm bar is the preferred bar. But this post, does mention what I feel the the ITR LSD is doing when Im coming out of the corner, I may get the slight understeer, but I can feel the LSD dig and pull the car out.

...which is the driver. What makes the CRX a really fast car is it's natural desire to turn/rotate/spin, and the drivers ability/willingness/crazy to drive it like that and know when to mash the gas.

Ok, so it sounds like you need to:
1 - Throw that front bar away.
2 - Drop your front spring to 500lbs.
3 - Throw that rear bar away.
4 - Install ASR 32mm hollow rear sway bar kit (start with the .095" thickness bar), or Suspension Techniques 24mm rear bar. Begin on softest settings and slowly increase as you gain confidence and additional rotation becomes desired.
5 - Set front toe to 0.
6 - Set rear toe to 0, slowly increasing to 1/16th to 1/8th toe-out as you gain confidence and additional rotation becomes desired.
7 - A good LSD can make a world of difference on a FWD car, and really make that outside front dig in and pull the car out of a corner.
8 - Once you feel like you're getting closer to the sweet spot with the larger components (springs, bars, & shocks), and really want to start dialing in the setup (shock settings, bar settings, toe settings), then you're gonna have to get onto at least some consistently decent tires. Trying to do it on rock-hard five year old take-offs with 15 heat cycles on them is a waste of time.
9 - Lastly, and most important, seat time. Gotta be in there, gaining experience and comfort with what you're doing, and figuring out what you're wanting the car to do.

The initial poster posted his final setup, what I saw was the OP mentioning several times that with the front bar can be set at different tightness settings? Im assuming that is from the endlinks? I always thought with sway bar endlinks you want it tight? Wouldn't a looser cause clunking? Changing my spring rates/shock combo may as well be might next step.

UPDATE: changes in bold

Front: 600lb
Toe: 1/8" total out, OEM sway tight

Rear: 750lb
Toe: 0, 22mm ST Swaybar installed, set on middle setting.

Increased shock rebound.

This was the droid I was looking for. Front grip was there, rotation was there at WOT at/after apex and the oversteer moments were all readily saveable, well, except for one. But other than that it was the rear bar that was the missing piece of the equation.

Ahhhhh... I had to go back and read the original thread. Yeah, that dude’s setup was bizarre. Having said that, take the suggestions with a grain of salt as they were all geared around a wheel to wheel setup for a CRX vs a street/autox setup for an Integra.

The numbered list above was from Kevin Ruck who spent a buncha time racing the against the Mosers in ITA (he had a DA Integra and they ran CRX Si’s). He ended up with something like 700/1100, stock front bar, huge rear bar on his Integra. He could never get it to work without a front bar... not enough roll stiffness and under extreme compression it was eating axles. The dude who started that old thread was trying to get his CRX to work with a stock front bar and stock rear bar. The big issue was getting the load transferred at the rear earlier in the corner (so it was up longer) and thereby kept more load on the inside, front tire. He was complaining of issues putting down power on corner exit.

I’ve heard of circle track folks setting up bars with “play” in the endlinks but really can’t think of how that would help for track or autox use. If it’s me, I’d run more bar than what you’ve got... I liked it with either the big ass Mugen bar or the easier to find (and lighter) ASR option.

As far as front upper arms, anything will hit if the car is low and you hop curbs. The ones linked earlier allow caster and camber... they’re quite a bit nicer than the Skunk ones. The issue with hitting the chassis comes down to a combination of spring rate, ride height, and bumpstop height. You can cut down on issues big time by getting these parts right but it can still happen over really big bumps.