Brake Pads Discussion

[coolhandluke]

The HP+ may do okay on Autocross, from memory, HP+ had quick bite characteristics. I'm hesitant to recommend as a novice HPDE pad. It may not hold up as your speeds increase, but different tracks are easier/harder on braking. The HP+ could be an all-round general pad.

Full disclosure, I didn't enjoy HP+ on my DD ITR. I do run them in the rear on track.

[RTW DC2R]

And obviously the STI and ITR are going to brake COMPLETELY different. Id guess an ITR isnt nearly as hard on brakes as an STI is simply because of the weight difference. ITR will also likely rotate a little easier which could make rear brakes even more of a fine line. Have too aggressive pad in the rear, and it could easily lock up. Ive never been able to mess with different bias or compounds in the rear to see how it impacts the car, always too many other issues to deal with. One day maybe Ill get to the point I can find tune that sort of thing.

[DC2Iggy]

The HP+ may do okay on Autocross, from memory, HP+ had quick bite characteristics. I'm hesitant to recommend as a novice HPDE pad. It may not hold up as your speeds increase, but different tracks are easier/harder on braking. The HP+ could be an all-round general pad.

Full disclosure, I didn't enjoy HP+ on my DD ITR. I do run them in the rear on track.

A friend had them on his DD civic for a total of 3 days before the squealing got to him and he went down to the HPS. Definitely would not be able to daily HP+s. Our local track only has a few areas where you could get enough speed to make the brakes work hard. The track is fairly short so I guess the brakes would be worked more often.

And obviously the STI and ITR are going to brake COMPLETELY different. Id guess an ITR isnt nearly as hard on brakes as an STI is simply because of the weight difference. ITR will also likely rotate a little easier which could make rear brakes even more of a fine line. Have too aggressive pad in the rear, and it could easily lock up. Ive never been able to mess with different bias or compounds in the rear to see how it impacts the car, always too many other issues to deal with. One day maybe Ill get to the point I can find tune that sort of thing.

Oh totally. STI has an extra 1000lbs(ish) on the ITR so I can't see it needing as aggressive of a pad. I'm planning on leaving some regular pads in the rear and just focus on the fronts for now.



Based on this chart it seems that the HT-10s would be a lot better for lapping once they heat up. I'll have to see where I can get them locally. I can get the DTC-30s for a reasonable price locally.

[aw614]

Those using HP+, are you using the brake pad backing plates on them and would that quiet the pads down?

[Rboosted717]

I use Pagid and Carbotech pads.

For Carbotech, I've used XP8, XP10, XP12, XP20 & RP2
For Pagid, I've used RS42, RS29 & RS19

Both pads are very similar, although Pagid is a little more expensive and seems to have a little more modulation. Thankfully one of the head guys at Pagid was heavily involved with Honda Racing Europe in the 90's and has been invaluable with dialing in my brake setups. He was the Technical Director for Linder Motorsport from 88-97, a Honda Motorsport Engineer from 97-99 and was heavily involved with designing the brake setup for most of the Integra Type R Belgian Procars from 98-00.

On the daily driver I'm currently using Carbotech RP2 (front) and XP8 (rear), with Castrol SRF, braided lines, Spoon twin-block calipers w/DBA vented rotors (front), OE ITR calipers and rotors (rear).

On the yellow & white race cars I'm currently using Pagid RS29 (front) and RS42 (rear), with Castrol SRF, braided lines, rear prop valve, no-ABS, front rotor & calipers ducting, AP Racing 4-pot calipers w/ AP Racing 299x28mm 2pc rotors (front), and OE ITR calipers & rotors (rear). This exact brake setup was used in the 24hrs of Spa, the Belgian Procar series and in the Speedvision series. I also have caliper, rotor and tyre temp sensors and so far I've had zero problems (outside of the rear wanting to lock up when the slicks are too cold).

Regarding which pad compound you should use, my contact at Pagid used the following variables to determine my setups. After using his recommended setup, I then provided some follow-up data analytics to verify the effectiveness and made changes were applicable. The key is variables are tyre type/contact patch, weight, caliper/rotor size, ducting/aero, bias control and race use type.

• Race weight (front, rear & total) - incl. driver, fuel, etc...
  Tyre size (ideally contact patch size for front, rear and total) & compound
  ABS or no-ABS (if no ABS, do you use a brake proportioning valve?)
  Driver braking style: trail braking, early braking, quick jab braker, soft progressive braker, etc...
  Master cylinder size
  Measured front brake pressure (avg and max)
  Measured rear brake pressure (avg and max)
  Front caliper type, piston count & pisons size(s)
  Rear caliper type, piston count & pisons size(s)
  Front rotor type, size (diameter and thickness), venting style and surface type
  Rear rotor type, size (diameter and thickness), venting style and surface type
  Front ducting - if so, what style
  Chassis aero - OE, front splitter w/effectiveness, rear wing, etc...
  Racing type - AutoX, Sprints, Enduro, HPDE, etc...
  Rear rotor type, size (diameter and thickness), venting style and surface type
  Brake fluid type
  Temps - caliper, rotor, tyre

[DC2Iggy]

Wow that's a pretty intense way of determining the proper brake pads. Definitely not on that level just yet.

A friend of mine recommended some Winmax W3 pads. He's been using them on his S2000 around the same track without any issues. Upon further research it seems they are comparable to the Hawk HP+ pads but with a higher heat range.

Do any of you run brake cooling/ducting on your cars? For those that do, does this factor into the type of pads you run?

[aw614]

I used the Winmax W3 on my integra when I had the stock gsr/ls front brakes. I really liked them for autocross, but did not have a chance to try them out for a track day. I only ran them on the front with the rears being the stoptech 309 pads. I have a set for the stock itr front brakes, but haven't done any track days and the stock itr pads do the job for autox. (not for track days!)

It seems using the winmax pads with backing plates (they didnt come with any, I reused another set I had) quieted them down a lot noise wise. On my GTI which most pads have the backing plates on the pad itself, they were school bus air brake loud.

[coolhandluke]

Wow that's a pretty intense way of determining the proper brake pads. Definitely not on that level just yet...

...Do any of you run brake cooling/ducting on your cars? For those that do, does this factor into the type of pads you run?

I recommend context to the use case(s) of the pads. There isn't a silver bullet brake pad. The HP+ may be perfectly suitable for your current skillset and desires for a spirited driving/AutoX/HPDE pad. Most pads suitable for the track offer trade offs in AutoX due to higher operating range but less initial bite. Brake pads are also a wear item, so these are not a life-long commitment. Keep it simple and keep notes on your findings.

I wouldn't be concerned with brake cooling/ducting. Most do not use them. Some do, but they are highly customized and are often on dedicated race cars.

[DC2Iggy]

I recommend context to the use case(s) of the pads. There isn't a silver bullet brake pad. The HP+ may be perfectly suitable for your current skillset and desires for a spirited driving/AutoX/HPDE pad. Most pads suitable for the track offer trade offs in AutoX due to higher operating range but less initial bite. Brake pads are also a wear item, so these are not a life-long commitment. Keep it simple and keep notes on your findings.

I wouldn't be concerned with brake cooling/ducting. Most do not use them. Some do, but they are highly customized and are often on dedicated race cars.

Great suggestion. I think I will definitely be starting out with a less aggressive pad and go from there. For a track that rarely sees 100mph on lower powered cars, I can't see there being a need for high operating range pads. I'll see what I can get locally and go from there.

As far as autocross goes, I had great success with the HPS pads and will be using those again.

[coolhandluke]

Sounds good.