Suspension tuning - dampers, spring rates, etc.

[coolhandluke]

What are the better camber kits these days? Specifically, I'm looking for engineered products, not cheap knock-offs like Blox/Buddy Club/Skunk2/etc. I'm researching rear UCA's and leaning towards King Motorsports, but they are spherical bushings. I drive my car on both the street and track, so rubber bushings are preferred for long-term durability and ride comfort.

[white rocket]

What are the better camber kits these days? Specifically, I'm looking for engineered products, not cheap knock-offs like Blox/Buddy Club/Skunk2/etc. I'm researching rear UCA's and leaning towards King Motorsports, but they are spherical bushings. I drive my car on both the street and track, so rubber bushings are preferred for long-term durability and ride comfort.

In terms of adjustability you are subject to the norm as you have already mentioned. Inconsistency with Hardrace has me steering clear for now and I don't dig on spherical at all. This leaves us right back to square one. Having said that, my Pro Series Skunk2 front and rear UCA's have held up splendid for a decade. I'd like to hate on them like everyone else does but they just keep on going with minimal bushing wear and haven't slipped even once. I have made alignment adjustments each year that involve adjusting the settings so they are being tampered with so to speak and they just keep on performing as they should. Food for thought if you don't find any other suitable options.

[coolhandluke]

All input is appreciated. I never had issues when I ran Skunk2 ~6yrs ago, but seeing 3x sets of cams break on Anselm's car and Dave @ Skunk2 taking ITRCA forums offline (permanently?), that's a brand I prefer not to support. For the other rubber options, I too personally have had issues with HardRace products only last ~10k. Every year at Expo we see attendees with worn rear UCA's due to poor build quality.

I'm currently leaning towards King, despite being spherical, due to quality and the fact they sponsor Expo every year for ~16-17yrs straight. PCI is another spherical option, but they are out of stock. I rarely drive the car (although I aim to change that) so wear should be minimal. The biggest negative to spherical will be impact to ride quality. The rear side-to-side deflection should follow the suspension's compression range, so I hope it is a minimal bump up in discomfort.

[coolhandluke]

@Xian

Any input on the engineering behind this setup?
https://instagram.com/p/BdMIsJOh9oh/

I’m attempting to understand the graph on slip angle being affected by toe.

[Xian]

@Xian

Any input on the engineering behind this setup?
https://instagram.com/p/BdMIsJOh9oh/

I’m attempting to understand the graph on slip angle being affected by toe.

I think the graph is trying to quantify absolute grip vs tire angle relative to the direction of travel. The “sweet spot” is going to change depending on the tire... Rival-S and Nexen have huge sweet spots while something like the 71R (or a Hoosier) have a smaller sweet spot. If you overdrive the ones with a big sweet spot, they punish you less.

The contention that “0.5° Is significant” is pretty dumb though... of course it’s significant. That’s 4/10ths of an inch of toe at one corner. Who runs around with over 3/4” total toe!? The only stuff I can think of are some stock class, FWD autox cars who have to run loads of rear toe out in order to eat the car to turn OR something like a Corvette where you run rear toe in so you can be more aggressive on the throttle.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s a bad product but I’m not convinced that it’s necessary for folks not running their cars super low. At extreme ride heights or under max compression, I’m sure the front toe gets a little wonky but I’m not certain that it’s a big enough issue that it needs fixing. The best thing to do would be to pull your damper/spring and then run the suspension through the stroke while noting the relative toe changes. I’d even suggest tracking the camber curve while you’re at it. Heck, I bet if you go digging through Scott Rinde’s old posts on HT that he posted up the same toe/camber curve stuff ~10-12 years ago. I seem to remember him doing it for both ends of the car and deciding that it wasn’t bad enough to worry about.

PS
Hope you had a happy holiday!

[coolhandluke]

The best thing to do would be to pull your damper/spring and then run the suspension through the stroke while noting the relative toe changes. I’d even suggest tracking the camber curve while you’re at it. Heck, I bet if you go digging through Scott Rinde’s old posts on HT that he posted up the same toe/camber curve stuff ~10-12 years ago. I seem to remember him doing it for both ends of the car and deciding that it wasn’t bad enough to worry about.

I will have an opportunity to measure next month. I just need to figure out the best way to measure...

I think the graph is trying to quantify absolute grip vs tire angle relative to the direction of travel. The “sweet spot” is going to change depending on the tire... Rival-S and Nexen have huge sweet spots while something like the 71R (or a Hoosier) have a smaller sweet spot. If you overdrive the ones with a big sweet spot, they punish you less.

The contention that “0.5° Is significant” is pretty dumb though... of course it’s significant. That’s 4/10ths of an inch of toe at one corner. Who runs around with over 3/4” total toe!? The only stuff I can think of are some stock class, FWD autox cars who have to run loads of rear toe out in order to eat the car to turn OR something like a Corvette where you run rear toe in so you can be more aggressive on the throttle.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s a bad product but I’m not convinced that it’s necessary for folks not running their cars super low. At extreme ride heights or under max compression, I’m sure the front toe gets a little wonky but I’m not certain that it’s a big enough issue that it needs fixing.

As always, solid suspension input, thank you.

[coolhandluke]

Searching around, I found:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-raci ... i-2940404/

[coolhandluke]

More, semi-related, from Realtime Racing's TSX:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-raci ... 964/page2/

[coolhandluke]

Unrelated, check out the RTR's TSX bits:

UCA:



Front blade-style sway bar:





Scott is a mad scientist:

[coolhandluke]

Even more unrelated, RTA nuggets here:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-raci ... u-2717766/