Suspension tuning - dampers, spring rates, etc.

[Xian]

Semi-related to all the talk about balance and stuff... here’s what my old Sedan looks like from behind. This was GL South, Road Atlanta, 195 Azenis. The car “felt” pretty neutral but could’ve used more rear bar IMO. My 97R drove about the same... sublime.

https://youtu.be/CTkbpTjWf0w

[PatHidden]

And this ^^^ is assuming you’ve got someone in the pits constantly at hand to accurately measure temps.

I take tire temps and that is the hardest/most annoying part of that process. I recently decided to just focus only on front tire temps to get an even contact patch, and then adjust rear pressures on what I want the rear tires to do. (loose/tight)

Overall, I come to the realization that tuning a car is important but just being a better driver helps a lot more. Being I am still learning its really hard to determine if faster laps are a cause of "tuning" the car, or just getting better....

[coolhandluke]

Dan-tastic.

Christian, who’s just gonna keep watching tire wear patterns, basic data, and butt-dyno balance adjustments.

The only "wear" patterns I can discern during a track day is how wide of the patch I'm using. Butt-dyno wise, I can "tell" when the car has too much PSI, but unsure from there. I typically drop drop drop drop each session until the butt-dyno says the car "feels" suitable. Very scientific and time-consuming process.

I have started to log each session:
-Track
-Temp
-Time
-Starting PSI, ending PSI
-Suspension settings
-Input/thoughts from session on car handling

[Xian]

Dan-tastic.

Christian, who’s just gonna keep watching tire wear patterns, basic data, and butt-dyno balance adjustments.

The only "wear" patterns I can discern during a track day is how wide of the patch I'm using. Butt-dyno wise, I can "tell" when the car has too much PSI, but unsure from there. I typically drop drop drop drop each session until the butt-dyno says the car "feels" suitable. Very scientific and time-consuming process.

I have started to log each session:
-Track
-Temp
-Time
-Starting PSI, ending PSI
-Suspension settings
-Input/thoughts from session on car handling

Wear “width” or rollover is a great one to watch. The other thing I check out is inside edge wear (on the front for an ITR). Watch the rollover, play with camber/pressure, watch peak grip (based on basic data), tweak, iterate. Given as much as folks know about these cars, you can get really damn close right out of the box and then just tweak... use rear rate/bar/toe to get the balance right.

And never forget that there’s more than one “right” answer.

[aklackner]

Coming to a damper near you?
Bilstein launches new piston promising OE comfort with race car handling.

https://www.semashow.com/press/2018/09/ ... =225534937

[coolhandluke]

Wear “width” or rollover is a great one to watch. The other thing I check out is inside edge wear (on the front for an ITR). Watch the rollover, play with camber/pressure, watch peak grip (based on basic data), tweak, iterate. Given as much as folks know about these cars, you can get really damn close right out of the box and then just tweak... use rear rate/bar/toe to get the balance right.

And never forget that there’s more than one “right” answer.

Excellent feedback, thank you! Now I just need to get a track day booked.

[DC2Iggy]

Figured I’d toss another, more recent, data point out there... the OG Koni+Ground Control combo is still pretty dang good on track. It’s not an R (caged EF) but did a fair bit of time at Road Atlanta for GL South in my old EF Sedan... it’s on Koni Race (shortened and revalved Yellows) with GC sleeves (700/1000). These shocks are still remarkably good for track use. I know they’re not quite as sophisticated as the current crop of monotubes but they’re really damn good for what they are. It’s been a long time since I’ve street driven them so I can’t comment on that aspect but, around the track, they did an awesome job soaking up the curbs.

I'm trying to make up my mind of what direction to go with in terms of suspension. I've ran Koni/GC on my old GSR and remember them being pretty good. My biggest issue with them was the floating spring and the terrible paint which chipped off and rusted. Are they any better now than they were 10 years ago?

It's hard to imagine that, in the past 10 years, nobody has come out with a product that is as good, if not better, than the Koni/GC combo at roughly the same price point (maybe a bit higher). Being that the chassis is fairly old, I find that there aren't many reviews out there for the new players in the game. Perhaps people are afraid to deviate to something different since every honda/acura suspension thread ends up with "get the koni/gc combo."

Is there anyone that makes a full bodied coilover that is decent for street and mild track use that's comparable in performance to the Koni/GC combo?

[aklackner]

t's hard to imagine that, in the past 10 years, nobody has come out with a product that is as good, if not better, than the Koni/GC combo at roughly the same price point (maybe a bit higher).

Best option for coil sleeve corrosion would probably be a spring bag. I know Eibach (red) and HyperCo (blue) both make them in a variety of sizes. This would help protect suspension from the elements and allow some selection of color.

On alternative coil-over sleeves:
If you can still get them, I'm pretty happy with the Koni sleeves (discontinued) but I've yet to do more than set the car on them to test and make some adjustments. I also went with Karcepts upper ball mounts so I have a lot of flexibility to experiment without having to go all in for pimp shocks. I did spend a lot more than I would have on a GC kit and even many coilover kits once you add up the cost of individual dampers, sleeves, springs, and upper ball mounts.

I managed to get Summit to order a set of the Koni sleeves since at the time Koni confirmed they had a few still around.

The Koni sleeves are very similar to the GC Koni specific kit but have a solid 2.25" seat (2.5" adapters are available), are black, and have a positive lock (recessed Allen head pin w/ nylon cushion). They use a pin type adjustment wrench similar to higher end coilovers. They also come with an upper spring seat if you want to use a ball type upper mount (for custom coilover), otherwise you can skip the upper seat and go with a spring that works for the OEM upper mount.



https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kon- ... 2cQAvD_BwE
https://www.ebay.com/i/382451931724?chn=ps
http://www.karcepts.com/shop/product.php?id_product=92
https://www.hypercoils.com/dual-rate-springs/

[DC2Iggy]

I saw your post earlier with that suspension setup and was trying to find it online. I didn't realize you had put it together yourself.

Just to clarify, I've never had issues with the ground control items in terms of corrosion. I did have one lock nut seize but GC sent out a new collar to me at no charge. The rusting was strictly on the Koni strut itself due to paint flaking off from repeated removal and install or where the paint had come off at the c-clip/perch. I understand cost has a big role to play in choosing the strut finish. Quick google search shows this to be pretty common for all painted koni shock bodies which is making me look at alternatives. KWs would be a nice upgrade but at a higher price point. In Koni's defense, I did winter drive on their struts for a solid 4-5 years so the rusting was probably accelerated by the sand/salt. ITR will not be winter driven.

EDIT: Got in contact with the guys over at KW and they said their standard coils are not meant for the track and can get damaged if they are tracked. He recommended the clubsports if I were to do any track racing.

[Xian]

I never had issues with corrosion on Koni’s (several set, several cars) but we don’t have winter or salt down here. Lol. My guess is that you won’t have issues if the application is limited to summer use.

As far as options, I’d check with Whitener... his stuff is gonna be the best for the price. Buying Koni’s and GC’s is certainly an option but it’s not going to be that much less than the custom stuff from Whitener.